Dr. Joëlle Gergis is an award-winning climate scientist and writer at the Australian National University. She served as a lead author for the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report and is the author of Humanity’s Moment: A Climate Scientist’s Case for Hope and Sunburnt Country: The History and Future of Climate Change in Australia. Joëlle has also contributed chapters to The Climate Book by Greta Thunberg, and Not Too Late: Changing the Climate Story from Despair to Possibility, edited by Rebecca Solnit and Thelma Young Lutunatabua.

But when I boil it all down, what gives me hope comes down to this: there is still so much goodness in humanity. Even if you can’t see it around you, or have stopped believing that it even exists, there is something good in all of us. When I’m really down, I have to trust that eventually, when the darkness has finally dissipated, I will be able to see again. Until then, I need to hold on and be guided by the light in others. When I allow myself to shelter in their compassion and care, it stills my own flickering light, until eventually, it starts to steady itself and glow a little brighter.

– Joëlle Gergis, Humanity's Moment

THE CREATIVE PROCESS’ ONE PLANET PODCAST

Speaking of fires in places where we didn't expect them, we have now have fires in the Arctic.

JOËLLE GERGIS

We're really starting to witness serious climate extremes that can no longer be ignored. And the IPCC, one of our key conclusions to that report was that effectively the human fingerprint on the climate system is now undeniable. It is now an established fact that we have warmed every single continent, every ocean basin on the planet. And again, that's a pretty serious thing to contemplate that human activity from the burning of fossil fuels and the clearing of land has led to this energy imbalance in the earth system, which is leading to a rapidly shifting climate.

It's unbelievable to stop and think that you've got such heat extending so far into polar regions that even these places are burning in the Arctic. I mean, it's extraordinary. And not just trees but also the permafrost, the frozen soils underneath. These frozen places in the Arctic are also starting to thaw. And when they start to thaw, that releases a lot of methane. Methane is a very, very powerful greenhouse gas. And along with carbon dioxide that really combines to accelerate warming. And so this is the thing. We're witnessing these changes in our lifetime. And to think as well that you have 40-degree temperatures in the United Kingdom. I mean, that's crazy stuff, but it just goes to show that we're really starting to witness serious climate extremes that can no longer be ignored. 

ONE PLANET PODCAST

You share these beautiful visits to ancient forests, which has been a part of your work for years. I didn't realize that you can reconstruct a past El Niño events using patterns in kauri growth rings. So when you go into these ancient forests, you have this deeper connection than maybe those of us who don't understand the science behind it.

GERGIS

The reason why I became a scientist, to be honest, is because of my deep love for the natural world and living in a country like Australia, which is absolutely extraordinary. You know, we have more unique plants and animals than anywhere on the planet. So more than places like Brazil or Papua New Guinea or Madagascar, these places you think of as being richly biodiverse. Australia actually tops the list, just in terms of the uniqueness of our natural environment. And so growing up in a place like that really infuses into your pores. And so I would go into these beautiful places, whether it be rainforests or the coast, which I love. And then as a young person, I was really drawn into wanting to study science. And so that's why I became a scientist. I guess I move through these landscapes in a slightly different way to say other people who maybe don't have that training, but I guess it's my love of the natural world that really is the fuel for the fire that keeps me going in this area. So I think it's fascinating, for example, that every single year trees can actually put down this growth ring and that is responding to things like temperature and rainfall. So, as long as that tree's been alive and some of these trees can grow up to 2000 years, you can have this really, really long record of climate that extends back beyond the official weather records that generally begin around about 1850 over most of the world. So it's one of these things that I just inherently find science really fascinating and being able to use these different types of records to reconstruct past climate allows us to look at these cycles of natural climate variability and then understand how they're shifting as the planet continues to warm.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

You've shared that while writing the IPCC assessment report and during the writing of this book, there were moments where you felt that you couldn't go on. How did you overcome that?

GERGIS

So even though I might be feeling really distressed by some of the work that I'm exposed to in my profession, it isn't just black and white. And sometimes things are going to be really difficult, and that's life. I mean, the reality is that life is really painful, and there are some really difficult realities, but there's also an immense amount of beauty and joy and all those things.

And so it's an active decision to seek those things out, seek those people out and groups that make you feel connected. And also just realizing that sometimes you need to go into a deep place of contemplation and a place of solitude where you sort of put your own pieces back together. And for me, that often involves connecting with nature.

So whether it's the ocean near where I live or the rainforests being around living creatures and other landscapes. And that makes me feel like I'm a part of something that does feel timeless and eternal. And I think that human beings, we have that in our bones no matter where we are, whatever culture you're from, wherever you live on the planet, we all share that really deep primal connection to the planet. So I guess it's a case of letting it flow through you really because sometimes it is going to, I think sometimes resistance is futile. Like it is just going to move through you, but realizing that it will pass. It's not going to completely break you. So, that's been my experience. I try and write about my experience with that. You know why? Because I think a lot of people feel these things, and I hope that my writing gives other people permission to express their own emotions and realize that there's another conversation that we could be having in public about how we feel about climate change and our changing world. And I really hope that it just provides people with some language around how we express those things.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

You’ve also written about this in your previous book Sunburnt Country: The History and Future of Climate Change in Australia. What was it like for you living through the Black Summer in Australia. You write of your personal distress, the individual connection that you have to these ancient trees.

GERGIS

For me, I think the Black Summer bushfires of 2019-2020 was really a turning point where I realized that as a scientist I almost had this responsibility to start speaking up a lot more and really clearly about the sorts of trends that we were experiencing here in Australia and how it connects to a warming planet that's being warmed by human activity.

And so, we had come off the back of a really serious drought, and it was so dry. 2019 was Australia's hottest and driest year on record, and everything was so dry that we saw tropical rainforests that are usually moist, really damp places, that are covered in moss and things like that, dry up and actually be turned into fuel and ignite and burn.

And to me, when that started happening it just absolutely blew my mind that I was witnessing rainforests burning. We're used to seeing eucalyptus forests that are used to fires, but having fires in areas that don't usually burn was extraordinary. And during that particular bushfire season, we saw about 50% of these ancient subtropical rainforests burn, which is just devastating because there's only 1% of them are left on the planet. So we have the largest tract of them left on the planet here in Australia on the East Coast. And to have 50% of them burn in a single bushfire season was just heartbreaking. And in that particular bushfire season as well, we saw 25% of Australia's temperate forests burn in a single bushfire season.

So usually about 2%. Would burn in say, an extreme fire season. So for that to be 25% just gives you an indication of these fires were just on a scale that we'd never seen before. And in the end, we saw 2 billion animals either killed or displaced by those fires. And now our most iconic mammal, the koala is actually listed as an endangered species along the east coast of Australia, which is again, something I never thought I would experience in my lifetime, that our most iconic animal that we're known for around the world is now really critically under threat because of the loss of habitat and the destruction of these natural places because of a rapidly changing climate. So I guess it was that moment for me watching these fires unfold. At the very same time I was working on this UN climate report, this IPCC assessment report and it just was, there was no distinction between what we were talking about writing this report and what was happening outside my window. And so I really felt compelled to start to share that information with the public. And so I would write pieces for places like The Guardian newspaper and other outlets would come to me to try and write.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

In Humanity’s Moment, you wrote about your father as a role model and the importance of education. Tell us about this and some of these life lessons that are passed on to you and your beginnings as you made your way as a scientist.

GERGIS

It was difficult to actually write about my dad because as I mentioned in the book, he died in 2017, and he was obviously a really significant person in my life. He really instilled this whole idea that education is the key to a better life, and that it's the great equalizer. So my heritage is from Egypt, so they were not wealthy. When my dad studied at university, he was able to break out of his social background, and it allowed him to move into other areas and create a better life, not just for him but for us.

And I think that it was very formative for me because it made me realize that anyone from anywhere can change their life if they're really determined - but it doesn't mean we all have equal access to equal resources. And my dad had to work really, really hard, as have I and many people around the world. It's like, at the end of the day, all you can do is really the best with what you've got. And I guess I've tried to do the best with what I've got and he certainly did his best with what he was able to do in his life.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

This is so moving. And you spoke about coming to peace with it. Really this book is how you came to peace with some of those emotions.

GERGIS

So a lot of people ask, in my line of work as a climate scientist, “How do you not just fall into a state of despair and really just see the really dark aspects of human behavior and our inability to correct our course and do the right thing?” And the truth is that we all have to reconcile it in some way. And you can either be really consumed by those darker emotions and that feeling that people don't care. Or you can just try and see beauty where it is and connect with other people who are also doing their very best. So I think this kind of binary thinking of black and white people are good or bad isn't quite right. There's just shades of gray and sometimes people do the best that they can from day to day, but other times we just have to. I guess it's a sense of being stubborn and believing that there is goodness out there.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

Many have looked to keeping methane levels down as one of our easier wins in terms of keeping us beneath 1.5 degrees of change.

GERGIS

So methane is a shorter-lived gas in the atmosphere. It only really sticks around for a couple of decades, whereas carbon dioxide can remain in the atmosphere for centuries. And so when we talk about trying to reduce methane emissions. It's a quick fix in terms of reducing warming in the short term. And we do need to do that through changes in industrial agricultural practices and a range of other means, but obviously, the burning of carbon dioxide is really the main one that we need to get on top of. So most of the warming is very much driven by carbon dioxide. So while methane is certainly very important greenhouse gas. Really CO2 is the main culprit.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

And when we talk about the level of global rates of the increased temperature of 1.5 degrees, and it looks like we're going to go beyond that. You've also written this doesn't give the full global picture. It's an average. What does that mean for Australia? What does that mean for different regions?

GERGIS

Unfortunately, the IPCC basically concludes that we are on track to breach 1.5 degrees of global warming in the early 2030s under all emission scenarios. So even under those lower emission scenarios because of our trajectory, we are going to breach that within a decade or so, which is again very serious. There are very, very serious implications in terms of what that means. But when we talk about 1.5, if you're thinking about a global average, about 70% of the earth is actually made up of ocean, and the ocean is cool and it absorbs a lot of heat, whereas the land reflects a lot of solar energy back into space.

So when you average the areas of ocean and areas of land, you end up with a global average, but it does mask some of the warming that will be experienced in the continental areas where people live. So, the warming that we've seen over the land is actually warmer than the global mean because these areas are not being buffered by the ocean, which is like a way of keeping a bit of a hand break on global warming.

So about 90% of the heat of global warming is stored in the ocean. We're going to see changes in different parts of the world. So the Arctic is actually warming three times the global average. We've actually seen over three degrees of warming in that part of the world already.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

So really everything has to change immediately. Now. I guess we have to peak carbon emissions by 2025. I don't know if that's possible, and then cut them down by over 40% by 2030?

 GERGIS

So right now the world is fueled by the burning of oil, gas, and coal, and a lot of people are making a lot of money out of that. Whereas with things like renewable energy, you can put solar panels on your rooftop, and all of a sudden you're not paying anything in terms of an electricity price. If you happen to live in a sunny country like Australia, you end up getting your electricity for free from the sun, which is extraordinary, but actually renewable energy is the cheapest form of electricity over 60% of the Earth's surface, which again is an amazing thing to think about. And yet we haven't tapped the full potential, less than a third of global energy is generated by things like solar and wind, and other renewable energy sources. So there's a really huge potential, but it is that moment where we can transition into a low-impact, sustainable future.

So I see that as a really positive thing, but we're in this moment where we're transitioning from an old technology into a new technology. And if you stop and think about history, where we went from people who used to have a horse and cart, and then they went to automobiles. It's the same sort of thing. We're just advancing our technology. So it's inevitable that it's going to happen. It is happening right now.

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In the book, I highlight a few examples globally and also here in Australia just to say that this is doable, we can do this, and I think we need to get better at telling these stories that are more hopeful and are really lighting the way for people to realize that this is not just some utopian idea that a bunch of environmentalists have come up with. There's really hard science on it that, all the way up to the UN level, shows this is all feasible, possible, and entirely deployable now, if we want to do that. So that is our collective challenge.

That is basically what people have been doing in Egypt with the COP27 meetings and the conference of parties to the Paris Agreement, their 27th meetings. So the world leaders have just met to try and do this. It's a big, big task, but it's one that I think we can do and we must.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

Is it true that there are options available in every sector that can half emissions by 2030? 

GERGIS

Look, the IPCC's Working Group III, which deals with mitigation - so what do we do about climate change? - have gone through all the different scenarios around the feasibility of doing that. My understanding is that there is scope to do it in all different sectors, which I think is really exciting. There are some hard-to-abate areas, so there are some areas like shipping and aviation and a few other sectors where the technology is still evolving, but that doesn't mean that we can't go forward with the other areas like electricity generation and so forth. But if you stop and think about it, if you put the research and development and the finance behind it, you could really accelerate a lot of these programs and you only have to walk through a university campus and see the kinds of people that are working on this day and night and it's amazing to realize how ingenious human beings are. So to answer your question, Working Group III's report basically outlined the pathway forward.

They're not the only group to have done that. There are many other groups who have also shown that decarbonization is in fact possible and feasible and something that we must do. And I guess it's really difficult for people to follow the conversation because, as you mentioned, there's a lot of misinformation. And information gets misconstrued depending on the person who is delivering that information, which is why I love being a scientist because my job is to just try and present factual information to people, and then they can make decisions about what they want to do. As scientists, like I said, for IPCC, we're all volunteers. We didn't get paid a single cent to work for three and a half years on this colossal report. It just goes to show you that not everybody is motivated by these sorts of insidious forces. Many people are good and altruistic and do things because they care about the collective good. And so, yes, it's possible. There are some challenges. There are some technical challenges in some areas, but there's also an enormous amount of progress that's been made in recent years.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

There are some technical challenges in some areas, but there's also an enormous amount of progress that's been made in recent years. Indeed the IPCC itself as a body can be considered as an example going forward - if all of humanity could act collectively like that - as though we were not all individuals or separate countries, but could act like one country on this one planet, I think that it's inspiration to us all.

GERGIS

Absolutely, and that's why I think I also felt like I wanted to share that in Humanity's Moment because I think working at the United Nations level gave me a direct experience of what it is like to work with people from literally all over the world with this common goal, and we're all very different, but we also have a shared humanity. And I think that it's extraordinary, and it's beautiful and it's extremely moving to work in that way. And that's the thing, right? I really do think that when humans want to step into their higher selves and work for the common good, we can absolutely do that. And, you know, our history is full of that as well. So it's just a case of remembering that and being a part of that. Wherever you can be a part of because you can choose to be a part of this social movement that is sweeping the world right now in terms of our push to live sustainably on this planet. It's happening all over the world. And so, you know, what we do on an individual level in terms of how we show up in this moment really makes a difference.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

And we do also have to open our minds to these kind of public-private partnerships, and business does have to work with society. Multinationals have that huge power to make huge changes to their emissions.

GERGIS

I guess removing the social license for the continued destruction of our planet has to shift. And this is where these social movements become really inspiring to think about it because it always just takes a small group of really committed people to shift a social norm.

And I quote some research in the book, which basically says you only need about 25% of a population to shift a norm, and then the rest of the population goes with those progressive elements. So right now we're in this moment where we're basically saying No More Fossil Fuels. We are cooking the planet. This is what the world's scientific community - that's what we are saying. We're cooking the planet. We must stop. And I guess the challenge here is to get enough people from all over the world, from all different parts of society, not just the scientific community, because we're only just a very, very small fraction people that make up our communities, but we need to mobilize people in a huge way to vote for our politicians at every level. From the local to the federal level who are going to reflect our values around shifting to a sustainable future, and choosing to leave a legacy, which is more one of care and repair rather than just complete destruction.

And we owe it to the young people. I mean, there's a chapter in my book where I talk about intergenerational damage. And it's one of these things I feel really strongly about because I don't think it's fair to leave this burden on the shoulders of young people. We have to take that responsibility here and now for all of us in positions where we do have political power or economic power through the way we consume. We have to do what we can. You can't expect a bunch of striking school kids to be able to do that, although I respect them greatly and I really, really value what they're doing. It's really up to decision-makers and the people in power because they're really doing that to put pressure on our decision-makers. And I guess that's really where the rest of the community can play a role in that. And that's where I think it's quite exciting because that's how all social movements happen. That's how you get political.

ONE PLANET PODCAST

It is about doing more with less to overcome our current challenges. We're facing an environment where we may have to experience de-growth. I think of previous generations who experienced this. Your father was formed during the Great Depression.

GERGIS

Yes, exactly right. I think that in many ways I think we've hit peak consumerism, and I think it's leaving a psychological void within us because we're trying to fill the void with a whole bunch of things, a whole bunch of objects or materials and things that aren't really that real or useful.

And it's not providing us with psychological or spiritual growth in many ways. So I think a lot of people are starting to realize that...because there's also a lot of marketing and social media and all these things that we're being bombarded with, and there's a lot for young people particularly to navigate in this space about what is a meaningful life? What do we need to find meaning in life? Is it our relationships with people? Is it plastic surgery to get better lips? Is it the latest pair of shoes? Look, they're all personal questions that everybody has to look inside themselves and think What really matters in life? But ultimately, I would say that many people who are paying attention would agree that we've lost the way.

There's a statistic I quote in my book where it's something like about 90% of all marine birds now have plastic in their stomach. And plastic is a byproduct of the fossil fuel industry. And I think it's just a horrifying statistic and reality to think about it, that we have just overrun the planet to such a degree that our ecosystems are starting to collapse and alter in ways that are dramatic and major.

And I think we have to reflect on that, as a species, and that's part of the invitation of this book is to stop and to think about what it is to be human at this moment in time. So as a physical climate scientist, I'm basically giving people the nuts and the bolts. It's like a planetary stocktake. Here we are, and what do we want to do? And I guess every single moment, every single decision to exploit the natural world has led us to this moment. And it is a moment where we're literally destabilizing the Earth's climate. We're seeing ecosystems starting to collapse, and we're seeing major impacts. So, where we are right now is a cumulative experience. And it is the moment to try and put the breaks on, to right the wrongs, and to also redefine our cultural values. And this is something I talk a lot about in the second part because I find that really inspiring to think about. I want to live in a society that values, for instance in Australia, the Great Barrier Reef being alive, rather than dead.

And right now we've lost 50% of the Great Barrier Reef since 2015 because of coral bleaching from the warming of ocean temperatures around our coastline because of a fossil-fueled warming trend that we have globally. So it's about thinking about those things. Do we actually collectively care about those things?

Are we going to actively protect those things? And I think those cultural values and those social norms are starting to shift. For instance, I think the case of plastics is a really good example of the social norms shifting, where a lot of people now find it really out of fashion to use plastic, and plastic is actually banned in a lot of places now. And I think one day in the future, we'll look back and think, Oh, can you believe. We used to use plastic. And the same way where we will also think about the burning of fossil fuels, the way we think about things like asbestos and using asbestos in our homes or building materials. Once we have more information, we can change our course. And I think this is the call to action that we are in right now at this moment. 

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Eveline Mol with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this episode was Eveline Mol.

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).