In this episode on Speaking Out of Place podcast Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Gabrielle Apollon and Pooja Bhatia about the actual histories behind the persecution of Haitian migrants in Springfield, Ohio, and beyond. Targeted as exemplary “bad people” by demagogue Donald Trump, the stories of both the town and the people of Springfield are brought forward by Pooja Bhatia, who lived both in Haiti and as a journalist lived with the people in Springfield. Complementing Bhatia’s local stories of migrants, Gabrielle Apollon of the Global Justice Clinic, discusses the complex “push” factors that drive Haitians from their homeland. Ending on a hopeful note, they show how instances of transnational solidarity have succeeded where governments and international governmental bodies have failed.

Gabrielle Apollon is the Director of the Haitian Immigrant Rights project at NYU Law's Global Justice Clinic. She also coordinates the Hemispheric Network for Haitian Migrants' Rights, a coalition of Haitian activists, lawyers, and leaders, collaborating to combat the anti-Black racism, exclusion and cyclical displacement Haitians have faced as they’ve migrated throughout the Western Hemisphere. Gabrielle previously served as Managing Attorney at The Door: A Center for Alternatives, where she represented young people in immigration and family law matters. She holds a Bachelor of Arts and a Master of International Affairs from Columbia University, as well as a law degree from NYU School of Law

Pooja Bhatia is an U.S. writer, editor and teacher who has reported on Haiti and Haitian immigrants for more than 15 years. She lived in Haiti from 2007 to 2011 and speaks Kreyòl. Her work has been published in a variety of outlets, including The London Review of Books, The Baffler, The New York Review of Books, The New York Times and The Economist, where she was Haiti correspondent from 2010-2013. A former human rights lawyer, Pooja teaches with the University Network for Human Rights, and is working on a novel.

POOJA BHATIA

The makeup of the United States, and the Americas more broadly, a lot of the narratives that we have in mind depend on where we start the story, right? So for Springfield, its heyday was in the 1800s, in the middle of the 1800s, all through probably the 1920s past the Great Depression. It was a major center for the manufacturing and innovation of farm implements.

There was a famous reaper that came out of Springfield called the Champion Reaper Company, and the white men who made those implements became very rich. When I went to Springfield a couple of months ago, I was shocked by how magnificent the houses are. We hear a lot about the economic depression of Rust Belt states, and I think that for a lot of people, Springfield is synonymous with that depression.

You don't realize that so much of the economy is still there. It's all along the streets of downtown in these magnificent old buildings and warehouses that really speak to the economy of a hundred, 150 years ago. So Springfield really had a heyday. I think the population probably peaked in 1960, and since then it's been in decline.

There were two major periods during which Haitians began to arrive: in 2021 and then again in 2023. They really revitalized the economy of Springfield, and they made it feel a lot livelier. I think that there were two things. One is that there was the feeling, like the vibe; it just became a lot more energized.

A lot of immigrants would come, and they would rent and, in some cases, buy these magnificent old houses and restore them. They basically brought them back to life. The other aspect of the revitalization came indirectly through income tax revenues. Just last night, the Springfield City Commission had a meeting.

They're working on their budget, and the income tax revenues pay for police, they pay for roads, they pay for fire, and also restoration. They pay for all sorts of things that make a city feel like a great place. The city tax revenue basically hit a high in 2024, and now it's in decline. It's in free fall as a lot of Haitians have left.

GABRIELLE APOLLON

Something that struck me, Pooja, when you were talking about this idea of the heyday of Springfield and this time long past, is the timeframe that you mentioned in the 1960s. For me, that just really comes to the forefront as some of the simmering background context of why, in the world, were Haitians singled out as this massive threat in the text of the election and the context of this immigrant discourse.

For me, it always goes back to this question of the anti-Blackness that permeates our immigration context. Think about what else was happening in the 1960s. What is this heyday that we're talking about? Are we also talking about pre-integration or before integration really was able to take hold in some of these places?

Is that part of this conversation about what it looks like to go back to a time? What are the kind of dog whistles that are being utilized when we portray images of Haitians or Black bodies as threats when it comes to immigration and the invasion of spaces?

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Speaking Out of Place, which carries on the spirit of Palumbo-Liu’s book of the same title, argues against the notion that we are voiceless and powerless, and that we need politicians and pundits and experts to speak for us.

Judith Butler on Speaking Out of Place:

“In this work we see how every critical analysis of homelessness, displacement, internment, violence, and exploitation is countered by emergent and intensifying social movements that move beyond national borders to the ideal of a planetary alliance. As an activist and a scholar, Palumbo-Liu shows us what vigilance means in these times.  This book takes us through the wretched landscape of our world to the ideals of social transformation, calling for a place, the planet, where collective passions can bring about a true and radical democracy.”

David Palumbo-Liu is the Louise Hewlett Nixon Professor and Professor of Comparative Literature at Stanford University. He has written widely on issues of literary criticism and theory, culture and society, race, ethnicity and indigeneity, human rights, and environmental justice. His books include The Deliverance of Others: Reading Literature in a Global Age, and Speaking Out of Place: Getting Our Political Voices Back. His writing has appeared in The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Nation, Al Jazeera, Jacobin, Truthout, and other venues.
Bluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social
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